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Traveller-digest            Monday, 15 July 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 251

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Long Night and Oxy/Nitro asteroids.
         2. Re: Jump space theory
         3. Off Topic SF Book Question
         4. Rules for Starship Construction (LONG)
         5. Re: Jump space theory
         6. Re: More IG praise
         7. Southern Living
         8. VS: The Iridium Standard
         9. Re: More IG praise
        10. Re: Off Topic SF Book Question
        11. Re: Jump space theory

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 96 00:13:12 -0600
Subject: Re: Long Night and Oxy/Nitro asteroids.

On 07/14/96 at 07:33 PM,  Charles Collin
<charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> said:

>Hi all.  Just thinking about the fate of worlds during the Long
>Night.   Would some high tech vaccuum worlds be able to sustain
>themselves? 

Sure!  There would be difficulties, but given a normal system and a
good starting level of technology, population, knowledge/skills, and
avoiding major upsets (war would be a big one) a space civilization is
very viable.

>It might not be a pretty existence, but I picture them getting
>hydrogen from the local gas giant, and other needed gases from
>asteroids/commets. Don't know if this last part is realistic,
>though.  Could they get oxygen  and nitrogen from gas giants?  

You don't even need gas giants, just run of the mill asteroids and
comets.  Split water for hydroden and oxygen.  There's everything else
you need in rocks and frozen gases.  Heavy metals are available from
certain classes of asteroids too.

>This all assumes they have a decent  manufacturing base so that they can
>produce/repair spacecraft, shelters,  vacc suits and so on.  Food's
>not that much of a problem if you've got energy and even lunar-type soil.

Quite so!  More than enough energy is available from the local star. 
And you don't even need soil, aeroponics and hydroponics works just
fine.  

You could sustain a viable civilization at a lower level of technology
than you might think.  You don't *have* to have gravtics or even
fusion.  You do have to have access to minerals, energy, and the tools
to produce the things you need.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 96 23:55:07 -0600
Subject: Re: Jump space theory

On 07/14/96 at 08:57 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
said:

>> Like I say above, this is ERIS, ie. it's the way I do things.  If yo
>> belong to a different church, feel free to do things differently. <g

>I belong to the church of "Use What Works," and this fits with the 
>doctrine thereof. :)  In other words, thanks for posting it.  That's
>the  best explanation of the jump process I've come across.  

Thank you, Sir! <g>

>Very usable, and gives the players who choose an engineering
>character an idea of what sort of things their character might be
>doing just prior to and during a jump.

Absolutely.  <g> I have a whole set of procedures for the engineering
types to go through preparing for and during a jump.  I didn't post
any of my Astrogation or Piloting stuff (it relates to Jump, but not
really to fuel use and that's what was being discussed), but I have
task lists for them too.

>Plus, the stuff in there about the jump grid and possible damage
>effects gives me something to torture the players with out in deep
>space after a particulary nasty battle.

>"What do you mean we can't  jump?  Our drives never took a hit!" 
>"Ah, but you do remember the 30  holes that opened in your hull
>during that barrage, don't you?" :)

You got it!  <g> I'd still let them jump, but they'd better get to
work on that grid or they might be mad as hatters when they arrive in
the next system...if they arrive at all.  

There was one game where the PC's were forced to huddle together in a
couple of compartments for the entire jump.  They left only to make
quick runs to the bridge or engineering to check on things...and
suffered various hallucinations when they did.  None of the PC's
actually died that time, but one NPC did committed sucide, cycled
himself through the airlock into jump space, buck naked, screaming
something about bugs.  <g>

There's also the possibliity of sabotage or accident during the jump
leading to emergenecy responses and repair tasks.  Or a ship can lose
coolent or have compenents running hot, and have cooling problems. You
have to find some way to reduce the heat or you'll have roasted
travellers.  <g> I don't usually *focus* on in-jump sessions, but
having all these possibilites is quite useful.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 00:36:18 -0500
Subject: Off Topic SF Book Question

Hey, this is a bit off topic, but I have a few questions about the somewhat
scattered and meandering thread concerning Sci-Fi books that are good
traveller type books.

First, let me explain that I am just starting to read the Asimov Foundation
series.  OK, so I'm a late bloomer, so sue me!  Anyway, I've noticed a few
things that make me wonder how much of this stuff was used for traveller.
I've only finished the first book, "Mathmematician," and I'm curious if
anyone knows if the ideas of psychohistory, and the Cleon personna were
borrowed from this universe?

Second, how does the Foundation universe compare and relate to the Traveller
universe?

And, Third, WHAT ORDER SHOULD I READ THESE STINKIN BOOKS IN?!?!?!?!  I
picked up _Prelude to Foundation_ thinking that I would start at the
beginning.  Well, I've come to find out that not only was this bok not
written first, it also isn't the first book in the history.  I don't mind
reading books out of historical order, but if one book answers questions
raised in another book, I'd like to read the questions first then the
answers!  HELP!!!!!


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 00:46:14 -0500
Subject: Rules for Starship Construction (LONG)

OK, Here are the rules for Starship construction.  Please go easy on me as
I'm a fragil person and don't tear my work apart too much. ;)  Hope this helps.

              *****           *****           *****           *****
                        Rules for Starship Construction

                                 by Paul Walker

METHODS OF CONSTRUCTION
CONSTRUCTION WORKERS
CONSTRUCTION PRICES
CONSTRUCTION TIMES


Methods of Construction

Typically there are three methods of construction in shipyards within the
Imperium: Frame Construction, Hull Construction, and Modular Construction.
While each of these types of construction affords certain benefits for
different construction facilities, perhaps the most popular is the Modular
Construction Method.

Frame Construction:  A shipyard using the Frame Construction method
generally will begin construction with the creation of the internal
structure and framing of a starship.  After the basic frame structure is
created, the various components are added in place, and where necessary
floor, wall, and ceiling plates are installed.  When all, or the majority,
of the components are added, they are all connected and the remaining floor,
wall, and ceiling plates are installed.  Finally, the hull is added to the
outside of the structure, and any external components are added.  This
method of construction is particularly useful in the construction of open
frame hulls, small hulls, and hulls with few exterior components.

Hull Construction:  The Hull Construction method is typically used with
military and other government hulls (*1), odd hull configurations, and hulls
with specialized internal designs.  The basic process in this type of
construction is to start with the basic structure of the hull, and add the
internal structure and components as necessary.  With the aid of
anti-gravity technology, the actual hull is held in place until the
appropriate internal structure and armor plating can be added.  Once the
internal structure and additional armor are added, the internal plating
(floor, wall, and ceiling) and the components are added.  Finally the
components are connected and initialized.

        *1 - Typically only military and government hulls that will require the
             installation of components that have been developed secretly for
             the government.

Modular Construction:  Modular Construction is used profitably for any type
of hull, but extremely reduces the cost of standardized hulls.  In Modular
Construction, the base of the hull is laid out, and modules are added as the
hull is built up.  For example, in a simple design, the bottom of the hull
would be manufactured, and teh engineering modules would be added to the
bottom deck, then as the fore and aft hull was being added on, the second
level floor would be added, and on top of it, the quarters modules.
Finally, the hull would be sealed, the components would be connected, and
the hull delivered.  While it is typical for the hull to be created from the
bottom to the top, it is not necessary that it begin with the bottom.  In
fact, some shipyards will only begin a modular construction from the aft.


CONSTRUCTION WORKERS

Welders:  The welder is the worker who adds the final securing to the hull
and internal structure.  After a fitter (see below) has placed the building
materials where they belong, the welder comes in and attaches these
materials with a permanent weld.

Fitters:  Fitters are responsible to place the plate, angle, channel, and
other structural and hull material in the proper place.  Typically the
fitter will secure these pieces with a few plasma welds until the welding
crew comes to finish the welding and secure th peice in place.

Electricians:  Electricians are responsible for running the electrical
cables throughout the ship.  These cables provide both power and data
transfer to and from the systems of the ship.  In addition, the electricians
are responsible for installing the electrical components onboard the ship.

Gravtics:  The gravtic crew is responsible for installing the gravity
systems (both contra gravity lifters and ship gravity) on board the ship
and, in some cases, the maneuver drive.  This crew is also responsible for
connecting these systems to the power and data cables provided by the
electricians.

Engineers:  The engineering crew is responsible for installing and
connecting the remaining systems.  This includes jump drive, power plant,
life support, quarters, hanger, and, on civillian ships, weapons.

Weapons specialists:  On military ships, this crew is responsible for
installing and connecting the weapon system.

Painters:  This crew is responsible for coating the hull (interior and
exterior) with the appropriate color shceme as well as the proper protective
paints.

Material Handlers:  This is the crew that actually gets the material from
its location in storage to the place wher the installation crew needs it.

Foremen:  These are the supervisors.  There are two groups in this heading,
the job foremen and the yard foremen.  The job foremen are assigned to each
hull and responsible for coordinating the construction from start to finish.
The yard are usually assigned to multiple hulls at once and are responsible
for overseeing the various crews in the yard (ie, welding foreman, fitting
foreman).

Laborers:  This crew is assigned as needed to assist the other crews.  Their
responsibility varies from getting welding material to unloading material to
mixing paint.  Typically this crew is responsible for the final clean up on
board a vessel before trials begin.

Architects:  This is the crew that actually designs the ship based on the
customers specifications.  They are responsible for determining the best
system to fit the customers requirements as well as designing the location
of equipment within the customers guidelines.  This crew provides the yard
with the blueprints with which they construct the hull.  This group also
include the specialists who help the customer determine what will work and
what will not work.

Office Employees:  This group includes the purchasing, accounting,
personnel, and management departments.  Also included in this group is the
sales and marketing staff as well as company laywers and project management.


CONSTRUCTION PRICES

Price:  The price listed for starships in most packages is the actual final
price for the vessel.  Typically shipyards will offer a ten percent (10%)
discount for customers willing to use standardized products rather than
specialized equipment.  Many shipyards have also implemented a standard
practice of allowing a twenty-five percent (25%) discount for ships built
using "off-the-shelf" components, that is components that are either in the
shipyard inventory or standard items available within weeks from a vendor.

Cost:  The cost of a starship typically runs between 80% to 95% (Avg: 85%)
of the actual sale price with 25% to 35% (Avg: 30%) for labor and overhead,
and 75% to 65% (Avg: 70%) for materials.  The 30% average for labor is
typically divided evenly between actual yard workers, designer/architect,
yard office, and corporate overhead (each getting 7.5%).  Here is a simple
breakdown of the starship cost:

     Cost Breakdown:
             Labor                      
                         Job Labor -  7.5%
                  Design/Architect -  7.5%
                     Yard Overhead -  7.5%
                Corporate Overhead -  7.5%
             Total Labot                        30%
             Material                           70%
                                              ------
             Total Cost                        100%


CONSTRUCTION TIME

In a typical shipyard, working 48 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, operating
only one shift, the construction time for a starship can be calculated using
the following formula:

        Tc = (.208 * P)/(D^0.5)

        Where:  Tc = Construction Time in Years
                 D = Displacement Tons
                 P = Price in MCr

To this figure, add .16 years for typical design time.  For civillian ships,
typical trials time will be twice the displacement divided by one hundred
months.  Military ships use the same formula only using four times the
displacement.  The formula for the number to add to construction time is:

        Tt = ((F * D)/100)/12

        Where:  Tt = Trials time in years
                 F = Multiple factor (2 for Civillian, 4 for Military)
                 D = Displacement Tons

The final time from contract signing to delivery of a starship would be:

        T = .16 + Tc + Tt

        Where:   T = Total time in years (contract to delivery)
                Tc = Construction time in years
                Tt = Trials time in years

These formula assume a single shift 48 hour work week and an average pay of
13Cr per hour in the yard.  It also assumes a 52 week per year schedule.  If
additional shifts are added (up to three shifts), simply divide the Tc
(Construction time) number by the number of shifts used.  Trials and Design
are not effected by additional shifts.

If any of the other factors are changed (ie, hours/work week, weeks/year, or
average hourly rate), the formula will not work.  As these are the averages,
this will be the typical time throughout the Imperium; however, if any of
these norms change, the following extended method can be used to determine
the construction time:

Step            Action                                  Result

 1.             Multiply 90% (or cost percent) by 
                 7.5% (or labor cost percentage) to
                 determine Job direct labor cost 
                 factor.                                Labor Cost Factor

 3.             Divide Labor cost factor by 1,000,000
                 then again divide by 13 (or average 
                 yard hourly rate) to determine man-
                 hour factor.                           Man-Hour Factor

 4.             Divide man-hour factor by 48 (or
                 number of hours worked per week) to
                 determine man-week factor.             Man-Week Factor

 5.             Divide man-week factor by 52 (or
                 number of weeks worked per year) to
                 determine man-year factor.             Man-Year Factor

             This number is:  the number of years it would take one man, or
                              the number of men it would take one year
                to build the ship, and must be adjusted based on the number of
                workers able to work on the ship at one time.

 6.             Determine the square root of the
                 displacement tons.                     Crew Factor

 7.             Multiply crew factor by 10 to
                 determine the maximum crew able to
                 work on the ship at one time.          Max Crew

             The initial formula for Construction Time is the Price of the
ship times the man-year factor divided by the max crew.  Again this is for
one shift, for more shifts divide the construction time by the number of shifts.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 22:53:08 -0700
Subject: Re: Jump space theory

Daniel Taylor wrote:

> There was a rule for drop tanks for jump fuel, I believe it
> was a book5 rule. And the description wasn't that the consumption
> rate was instantaneous, but that the jump capacitors had to
> be charged in a certain period of time, which was beyond the
> capacity of standard Fusion reactors.  Pretty hokey, but it
> was the explanation used. Of course the J-drives were using most of
> the fuel for cooling, I always wondered "Why not just carry
> water tanks for all of this cooling? after all- it is MUCH
> cheaper than pure H2 per Kg."  The same goes of course for maintaining
> a Jump bubble with it. It is quite elementary to keep the water
> in seperate tanks. And it can absorb a lot more heat than H2.

If you're using most of the fuel for cooling purposes why is it 
disapearing?

In theory you'd think that the imperium would run the cooling system on a 
closed circut much like the cooling system on an internal combustion 
engine.  Liquid Hyrdogen is extremely cold and would make an excellent 
heat dispursur, if you pumped the hydrogen through a cooling jacket on 
the exterior of the jump-drive and through specially designed cavities in 
the center of the jump-drive you'd be more than capable of cooling the 
drive.  As the hydrogen heated it'd turn in to a gas, the gas is then 
collected pumped through radiators, re-compressed and used again, if the 
entire system was highly pressurized it'd never even turn into a gas.

The problem with this theory is any moisture in the atmosphere, inside 
the ship, would freeze to the outside of the jumpdrive.  This could 
become pretty messy.

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 23:05:20 -0700
Subject: Re: More IG praise

David C.. Broussard wrote:

> 
>Also a store in San Antonio got a prerelease order form for MMT.  It was 
>a four page foldout with lots of great Foss artwork.  Printed in big 
>letters was August 1, 1996 on the top, so I guess that means 18 days to 
>go!!!

Really?  You're lucky, my store up here in Canada knows nothing about T4, 
he's on his suppliers butts night and day, because I'm on his butt night 
and day.  I've told him more than his suppliers have and half of them are 
in the States.  None of the suppliers know what's going on, in fact he 
was worried it'd be an internet available game only.

Derek Stanley


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 96 02:16:59 -0600
Subject: Southern Living

On 07/14/96 at 09:34 PM,  "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
said:

>>What you say?  I cut some pig skin into strips and fried it down just
>>last week...mummm, mummm, Good!  Don't do it often, but for an
>>occasional fat-snack, can't be beat.

>Ahhh'lll be rat ovah! :) :) 

Pull up a chair, and sit a while!

>>BTW, do you know what that white stuff in Twinkies or between the
>>cookies in an Oreo really is?  That's the stuff that'll keel ya! <g>

>Grinding gears here... I'm a diabetic (so I won't be right over! Love
>the stuff but it would wreak havoc with my vitals...) Don't eat
>twinkies or oreos... 

Take some lard, mix it with lots and lots of suger, and whip..whip it
good!  

Can't much say I like it either, but I've never been much for those
kinds of sweets.  

>Sayyy.... I thought down your way it was arah-see-cola anna moon pie! :) 

You bet!  I grew up on RC cola and Yahoos, got sick on (and of) moon
pies early on.  <g>  Those moon pies are nasty!

But there was nothing better than salted peanuts in a bottle of ice
cold coke!  You pulled the cokes right out of the water in the big red
ice cooler at Rex's General Store.  You could tell it was a coke just
by the feel of that curvey little bottle.  Pop off the bottle top on
the side of the cooler, tear open the bag of roasted peanuts, and pour
'em in...Ahhhh!

Ya'll come back now, hear!

Eris
- -- 
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eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: P <jyrki.paajanen@jyrki.pp.fi>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 10:23:07 +-300
Subject: VS: The Iridium Standard

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      My main point, in my earlier post, was: Who distributes
news/information/mail/etc. to those backwater worlds that are not on
x-boat communications routes?  Would the Imperium have a few dinky ships
running an arbitrary schedule, or would they open those routes up to
private competition...?

I think that's what those subsidized merchants are for. They will =
establish a route for those backwater planets where they are the only =
starships to make regular runs. If those planets can't afford to =
subsidize a merchant, they might subsidize a lone scout for mail =
running. I think Imperium doesn't care for communication to those =
planets which doesn't attract trade.

      Jyrki Paajanen

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------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 17:59:07 +1000
Subject: Re: More IG praise

On Sun, 14 Jul 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:

> Really?  You're lucky, my store up here in Canada knows nothing about T4, 
> he's on his suppliers butts night and day, because I'm on his butt night 
> and day.  I've told him more than his suppliers have and half of them are 
> in the States.  None of the suppliers know what's going on, in fact he 
> was worried it'd be an internet available game only.
> 
> Derek Stanley

Depressing. If the canadians dont see the fliers, what chance will us 
Aussies have?

Maybe you should contact IG yourself, see if the Commonwealth Countries 
are on the list. If not, we may have to go to war again with the Yanks :-)


> 

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

From: Darryl Adams <dtadams@ar.ar.com.au>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 17:55:55 +1000
Subject: Re: Off Topic SF Book Question

On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> First, let me explain that I am just starting to read the Asimov Foundation
> series.  OK, so I'm a late bloomer, so sue me!  Anyway, I've noticed a few
> things that make me wonder how much of this stuff was used for traveller.
> I've only finished the first book, "Mathmematician," and I'm curious if
> anyone knows if the ideas of psychohistory, and the Cleon personna were
> borrowed from this universe?

At least you are reading it. I am eternally greatfull for Mr Mcdonald 
(an english teacher who encouraged sci fi) for inflicting "Foundation" in 
high school :-)

> 
> Second, how does the Foundation universe compare and relate to the Traveller
> universe?
> 

The Imperium was formed after the collapse of the spacer worlds (see 
Robot Series), and the distruction of Earth. Many small states competed 
for dominance, in the end Trantor came out on top. In the end, The 
Imperium started to collapse. Hari Seldon, a mathematician , postulated 
that you could use equations to map history (sort of chaos theroy with 
masses of people). He realised that the collapse of Trantor would lead to 
an Interigum of 10,000 years. If he took steps , the piriod would be 1000 
years. So he formed the Foundations, who where to herald the new 
civilisan.


> And, Third, WHAT ORDER SHOULD I READ THESE STINKIN BOOKS IN?!?!?!?!  I
> picked up _Prelude to Foundation_ thinking that I would start at the
> beginning.  Well, I've come to find out that not only was this bok not
> written first, it also isn't the first book in the history.  I don't mind
> reading books out of historical order, but if one book answers questions
> raised in another book, I'd like to read the questions first then the


The easiest way to read it:

1. Foundation
2. Foundation and Empire
3. Second Foundation
4. Foundation's Edge
5. Foundation and Earth.
6. Prelude to Foundation
7. Forward the Foundation.

Tie in books (Asimov tied in a lot of his stories in his later books)

1. The Robot Series
2. Galatic Empire Series (A look at the start of the Impirium)
(sorry, I cant think of the names of the books)


>----------------------------------------------------------------------------<
Darryl Adams                                       

dtadams@ar.com.au
 
"But as a Mistral employee once told me,
Your only as good as your fans"	        	TISM : Play Mistral for Me 


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 08:41:42 GMT
Subject: Re: Jump space theory

On Sun, 14 Jul 1996 22:53:08 -0700, Derek Stanley wrote:

> In theory you'd think that the imperium would run the cooling system on a 
> closed circut much like the cooling system on an internal combustion 
> engine.  Liquid Hyrdogen is extremely cold and would make an excellent
> heat dispursur, if you pumped the hydrogen through a cooling jacket on 
> the exterior of the jump-drive and through specially designed cavities in 
> the center of the jump-drive you'd be more than capable of cooling the 
> drive.  As the hydrogen heated it'd turn in to a gas, the gas is then 
> collected pumped through radiators, re-compressed and used again, if the 
> entire system was highly pressurized it'd never even turn into a gas.
> 
> The problem with this theory is any moisture in the atmosphere, inside 
> the ship, would freeze to the outside of the jumpdrive.  This could 
> become pretty messy.

Actually, the problem with this example is that it wouldn't work.   :-)

Yes, liquid Hydrogen could be used to absorb radiated heat from the jump
drive.  As a liquid absorbs heat, it will eventually vapourize (at -253 C
or 20 Kelvin).  Once the Hydrogen gas has absorbed a specific amount of
heat energy, it must be pumped away from the drive.  The problem now
becomes, what do you transfer the heat energy locked away within the
hydrogen gas *to*?

Space is void of any matter to which the heat energy can be transferred to.
True, the gaseous Hydrogen can be transferred to radiators mounted on the
hull which would eventually radiate as infrared, but it wouldn't be enough.
Additionally, the act of compressing a gas back into a liquid transfers a
great deal of heat into the pump itself (ie: to reduce the temperature of
something, something else must absorb that energy).  Now the pump must be
cooled as well  :-)

This is where the idea of heating up LHyd and ejecting it from the
spacecraft came from.  Apollo missions relied on this technique and so does
today's space shuttle.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #251
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